Each of the last couple years I put together a list ranking the starters across the offensive line entering the season with tiers to separate them into distinct groups.
Jul 25, 2022·edited Jul 25, 2022Liked by Brandon Thorn
Was waiting for this....and was certainly worth the hype I had for i good stuff as always. Some things that come to mind looking through this. This is alot feel free to respond or look at whichever parts of this you want to, no need to parse through all this super closely haha.
a) One surprising omission to me was Jon Runyan. I know you had him with like a month left listed in the season listed under your Pro Bowl consideration list at G. What are your thoughts on him and how you think he projects? Also just wanted to throw some names out there and see how close they were to making the list for you at different spots. No need to give specific breakdowns on each just saying how close is fine unless a guy particularly piques your interest: Matt Hennessy, Mike McGlinchey, Graham Glasgow, Ted Karras, Ezra Cleveland, Robert Hunt, Billy Turner.
b) Orlando Brown I was a bit surprised about how high he came in. You made an interesting pt about him understanding body angles but I do sometimes feel like he can still have some ugly sets on deeper drop backs or by guys beating him outside. I might be missing something you can tell me where Im wrong but I get the sense sometimes his hands and feet arent fully in sync with each other(https://gfycat.com/tenselivelyiridescentshark). What Im wondering is maybe you might value his work in the run game alot or if Im just completely off base in my discussion on his pass pro
c) I agree with you having Mailata outside your top 15(still in tier 4) think some of the hype with him may be a year premature. But I did want to ask you hear all the time about how "he only started playing football 4 yrs ago the sky's the limit for him" what you thought of his realistic ceiling?
d) DJ Humphries I had kind of viewed as the NFC equivalent of Cam Robinson in the past. You hadnt mentioned him in your H/M either was wondering your thoughts on him and where you view him. Actually find him kind of an interesting player, has fine athletic traits and I find his hand usage often helps him vs better edge rushers(https://gfycat.com/blueblackandwhiteisopod). He does have bad reps(can be had vs bull rushes) but he held up better vs better competition than I expected.
e) Real quick wanted to ask about Kolton Miller agree with everything you said about his issues(some ex https://gfycat.com/welldocumentedcolossalgrison) just wanted to ask how correctable do you think they are. Because while it is true he has kind of stalled out Im not sure that necessairly needs to be the case per se, I think he's quite talented in pass pro and potentially has a meaningfully higher ceiling than where is right now.
f) Lastly wanted to ask about 2 guys also who's teams seemed to sour on them a hair Michael Onwenu and La'el Collins. With Onwenu do you have insight into why the Pats might have benched him, anything on film to suggest it? What position do you think is best for him, my initial instinct is guard but he's held up better in pass pro than Ive expected in the past at RT. And then with La'el Collins his contract was lower than I would’ve valued him, seems like given how high you ranked him maybe you were a bit surprised as well. My two initial thoughts on that were a) health concerns with him are significant b) he will occasionally have some surprisingly ugly(especially his first few games back https://gfycat.com/friendlysourfieldmouse) which might skew perception and unfairly hold a bit too much weight against him.
Thanks alot again for doing this and taking the time to read through my thoughts, appreciate you
Thank you for reading, supporting and sending so many great questions.
A) As you pointed out, I love Runyan's game and think he is one of the most underrated guards in the entire league. The reason I left him out is the uncertainty with if he will get to stay at LG with Jenkins back. I have heard Jenkins will play RT, which would signal yes on Runyan keeping him job and probably would give GB their best five too. In that case, he probably would've been on there. Ultimately, I'd like to see it another year as well, which played a part in not having him on. But he is absolutely a tier 4 LG at worst right now and is deserving of being mentioned there. If I knew he was the LG for sure (w/Jenkins at RT) he likely would've made it.
I didn't give much consideration to those other names you mentioned for a variety of reasons aside from McGlinchey at the 15th spot for RT. I see him in tier 4 still. Glasgow tier 4 possibly too, but we'll see how he returns from injury and if he can beat out Meinerz or Cushenberry. Cleveland & Hunt have a shot at rising to tier 4 this year, but I still see them more in tier 5.
B) Brown definitely isn't perfect in pass pro and is a fringe tier 3/4 player in that regard, but I thought he gradually improved as the year went on too. Plus, I think it's fair to expect him to continue to incrementally improve with in his second year in such a dramatically different system. His run-blocking is definitely tier 3 material as well.
C) Glad you agree on Mailata haha..like I've mentioned a few times on Twitter..I think people are conflating him having a remarkable story and being better than everyone expected at this point with actually being better than he is relative to the other LTs in football. His run-blocking is tier 2/3 material, but the pass pro is what keeps him in tier 4 IMO. That said, I think he is still improving and would expect that ascension to continue in 2022. A realistic ceiling is probably tier 3, maybe tier 2 in a best case scenario.
D) I like saying Humphries is the NFC's Cam Robinson. I think that makes sense. He really struggled against Danielle Hunter last year I remember that, and think his technique in pass pro may be a little shakier than Robinson's.
E) I think Miller is who he is at this point more than likely. Not to say he can't improve on the margins, but something dramatic I just have a hard time seeing, especially considering how much development has already taken place since he came into the league.
F) I don't have much insight on how the Pats have handled Onwenu, no. I think his best spot is guard, but I agree with you that the RT tape last year was surprisingly impressive in pass pro, so that is a viable spot as well. Collins is all about durability at this point, so I get if people want to knock him. Like I said in the article, I still believe his ceiling is firmly higher than anyone else below him on the list and based on the upward trajectory he was on at the end of last season (plus re-joining Pollack in Cinci) suggest to me it being a fair bet to hedge on the optimistic side going into 2022.
Thanks for the quick but very detailed and thorough response! Few quick follow ups if you get a chance at some pt
a) If Elgton plays at RT where would you place him on this? My guess is T3 maybe T2 if you really like his skill set for it.
b) This is a small thing was just wondering what made Conklin tier 2 vs Moton tier 3. Because I find them in some ways kind of similar players, Im guessing its not pass pro but you seeing Conklin as providing more value in the run game that gives him the edge?
c) Do you like Sewell more at RT or LT? My assumption before watching him was LT because that was always his position but his potential as a run blocker(espec in the Lions scheme) I do think makes it a little more interesting a question.
d) Do you think the Steelers should give consideration towards playing James Daniels at C? This was his position in college he played it some in 2019. Obviously transitioning between spots constantly isnt ideal for development but like you said in some ways his career is defined more by the idea/potential of him than the actual reality of what he's been(I also think he's stagnated the past few yrs).
Was waiting for this....and was certainly worth the hype I had for i good stuff as always. Some things that come to mind looking through this. This is alot feel free to respond or look at whichever parts of this you want to, no need to parse through all this super closely haha.
a) One surprising omission to me was Jon Runyan. I know you had him with like a month left listed in the season listed under your Pro Bowl consideration list at G. What are your thoughts on him and how you think he projects? Also just wanted to throw some names out there and see how close they were to making the list for you at different spots. No need to give specific breakdowns on each just saying how close is fine unless a guy particularly piques your interest: Matt Hennessy, Mike McGlinchey, Graham Glasgow, Ted Karras, Ezra Cleveland, Robert Hunt, Billy Turner.
b) Orlando Brown I was a bit surprised about how high he came in. You made an interesting pt about him understanding body angles but I do sometimes feel like he can still have some ugly sets on deeper drop backs or by guys beating him outside. I might be missing something you can tell me where Im wrong but I get the sense sometimes his hands and feet arent fully in sync with each other(https://gfycat.com/tenselivelyiridescentshark). What Im wondering is maybe you might value his work in the run game alot or if Im just completely off base in my discussion on his pass pro
c) I agree with you having Mailata outside your top 15(still in tier 4) think some of the hype with him may be a year premature. But I did want to ask you hear all the time about how "he only started playing football 4 yrs ago the sky's the limit for him" what you thought of his realistic ceiling?
d) DJ Humphries I had kind of viewed as the NFC equivalent of Cam Robinson in the past. You hadnt mentioned him in your H/M either was wondering your thoughts on him and where you view him. Actually find him kind of an interesting player, has fine athletic traits and I find his hand usage often helps him vs better edge rushers(https://gfycat.com/blueblackandwhiteisopod). He does have bad reps(can be had vs bull rushes) but he held up better vs better competition than I expected.
e) Real quick wanted to ask about Kolton Miller agree with everything you said about his issues(some ex https://gfycat.com/welldocumentedcolossalgrison) just wanted to ask how correctable do you think they are. Because while it is true he has kind of stalled out Im not sure that necessairly needs to be the case per se, I think he's quite talented in pass pro and potentially has a meaningfully higher ceiling than where is right now.
f) Lastly wanted to ask about 2 guys also who's teams seemed to sour on them a hair Michael Onwenu and La'el Collins. With Onwenu do you have insight into why the Pats might have benched him, anything on film to suggest it? What position do you think is best for him, my initial instinct is guard but he's held up better in pass pro than Ive expected in the past at RT. And then with La'el Collins his contract was lower than I would’ve valued him, seems like given how high you ranked him maybe you were a bit surprised as well. My two initial thoughts on that were a) health concerns with him are significant b) he will occasionally have some surprisingly ugly(especially his first few games back https://gfycat.com/friendlysourfieldmouse) which might skew perception and unfairly hold a bit too much weight against him.
Thanks alot again for doing this and taking the time to read through my thoughts, appreciate you
Thank you for reading, supporting and sending so many great questions.
A) As you pointed out, I love Runyan's game and think he is one of the most underrated guards in the entire league. The reason I left him out is the uncertainty with if he will get to stay at LG with Jenkins back. I have heard Jenkins will play RT, which would signal yes on Runyan keeping him job and probably would give GB their best five too. In that case, he probably would've been on there. Ultimately, I'd like to see it another year as well, which played a part in not having him on. But he is absolutely a tier 4 LG at worst right now and is deserving of being mentioned there. If I knew he was the LG for sure (w/Jenkins at RT) he likely would've made it.
I didn't give much consideration to those other names you mentioned for a variety of reasons aside from McGlinchey at the 15th spot for RT. I see him in tier 4 still. Glasgow tier 4 possibly too, but we'll see how he returns from injury and if he can beat out Meinerz or Cushenberry. Cleveland & Hunt have a shot at rising to tier 4 this year, but I still see them more in tier 5.
B) Brown definitely isn't perfect in pass pro and is a fringe tier 3/4 player in that regard, but I thought he gradually improved as the year went on too. Plus, I think it's fair to expect him to continue to incrementally improve with in his second year in such a dramatically different system. His run-blocking is definitely tier 3 material as well.
C) Glad you agree on Mailata haha..like I've mentioned a few times on Twitter..I think people are conflating him having a remarkable story and being better than everyone expected at this point with actually being better than he is relative to the other LTs in football. His run-blocking is tier 2/3 material, but the pass pro is what keeps him in tier 4 IMO. That said, I think he is still improving and would expect that ascension to continue in 2022. A realistic ceiling is probably tier 3, maybe tier 2 in a best case scenario.
D) I like saying Humphries is the NFC's Cam Robinson. I think that makes sense. He really struggled against Danielle Hunter last year I remember that, and think his technique in pass pro may be a little shakier than Robinson's.
E) I think Miller is who he is at this point more than likely. Not to say he can't improve on the margins, but something dramatic I just have a hard time seeing, especially considering how much development has already taken place since he came into the league.
F) I don't have much insight on how the Pats have handled Onwenu, no. I think his best spot is guard, but I agree with you that the RT tape last year was surprisingly impressive in pass pro, so that is a viable spot as well. Collins is all about durability at this point, so I get if people want to knock him. Like I said in the article, I still believe his ceiling is firmly higher than anyone else below him on the list and based on the upward trajectory he was on at the end of last season (plus re-joining Pollack in Cinci) suggest to me it being a fair bet to hedge on the optimistic side going into 2022.
Thanks for the quick but very detailed and thorough response! Few quick follow ups if you get a chance at some pt
a) If Elgton plays at RT where would you place him on this? My guess is T3 maybe T2 if you really like his skill set for it.
b) This is a small thing was just wondering what made Conklin tier 2 vs Moton tier 3. Because I find them in some ways kind of similar players, Im guessing its not pass pro but you seeing Conklin as providing more value in the run game that gives him the edge?
c) Do you like Sewell more at RT or LT? My assumption before watching him was LT because that was always his position but his potential as a run blocker(espec in the Lions scheme) I do think makes it a little more interesting a question.
d) Do you think the Steelers should give consideration towards playing James Daniels at C? This was his position in college he played it some in 2019. Obviously transitioning between spots constantly isnt ideal for development but like you said in some ways his career is defined more by the idea/potential of him than the actual reality of what he's been(I also think he's stagnated the past few yrs).
Thanks again
great work as always
Thank you!
Amazing in-depth look at how offensive linemen around the league stack up!
Thanks, Sam! Couldn't have done it without your help correcting all of my grammatical errors! hah
Where can I find the 2022 offensive line rankings as a unit?
I do those exclusively for another site. https://establishtherun.com/thorn-2022-offensive-line-rankings/
Okay. Thanks B